For master drummer/percussionist Joe Chambers the intent of Dance Kobina was to show the inspiration from African-American, Brazilian, Argentinian, and Central African music. With pianist Andres Vial alongside top American and Montreal-based musicians, originals are featured with music composed by Joe Henderson and Kurt Weill in this new offering from Blue Note Records.
From Monday, February 20 through Friday, February 24, one cut from Dance Kobina album will be featured each morning on the New Day, New Play spotlight on my Daybreak show.
Preview “Power to the People” from Dance Kobina, above.
Chambers talked with WBGO’s Monifa Brown, host of “Saturday Evening Jazz,” about Dance Kobina, his latest album and what he learned from jazz masters like McCoy Tyner, Freddie Hubbard and Eric Dolphy.
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Monifa Brown: Master percussionist Joe Chambers is in the house with us. He’s propelled the rhythm section for so many of my favorite recordings including Wayne Shorter’s Adams Apple, Joe Henderson’s Mode For Joe and Freddie Hubbard’s Breaking Point! The eternally hip drummer has even been sampled by Nas. Welcome Joe let's dive into your new and third album for Blue Note, the label you helped to catapult to success in the mid-60s. Dance Kobina, is such a beautiful work. Listening through, the tracks are seamless and feel connected, as if they are part of a suite. You are really taking us on a journey somewhere. Can you give us some background on your conception for the album?
Joe Chambers: In the recordings that I make, I've always tried to have a connection between the pieces. I think a lot of musicians do that or try to do that. There's a written statement with the CD by Andrés Vial. He's the Montreal connection on the recording and he's a former student. What he says is that the word kobina actually means dance in Congolese. He originally didn't have any titles for any of the tunes he brought. I suggested, “Let's go with ‘Kobina,’” since it was a very uplifting piece. It’s kind of a nod to the Congolese percussionist that is on the set—Elli Miller Maboungou.
You mentioned that Andrés is part of the Montreal contingency on the session. There is also your New York trio, and you mentioned the Congolese drummer. How do all these pieces fit together on the album?
When it was time for me to record for Blue Note, we got together musicians in New York for the first sessions, and that consisted of the pianist Rick Germanson, bassist Mark Lewandowski and Marvin Carter on saxophone for two pieces. There’s also another percussionist, Emilio Valdez, who is originally from Cuba. So that was the New York group. We recorded at least nine pieces. Then I got a call from Andrés, who was one of my students at The New School back in the early 2000s. He calls me and says, “Oh, you want to come up? I got some stuff for you. I want you to come up here to Montreal and record where I got some percussionist.” I said, “Oh yeah, that sounds good.” I went up there and we rehearsed, and the stuff was so exciting. It was very vibrant what we did.
So, Andrés Vial was not initially a part of the project but when you got together, it sounds like something happened organically through your connection with one another.
I thought I was finished with this CD but the music said, “No, there's more to be done.” I heard that and I said, “Man, I got to put this on what I just did.” But in order to do that, I had to take something out. I discarded at least four pieces from the New York group we had. I told Don (Was) at Blue Note and he said, “Well, let me hear it.” I let him hear what we were doing up there in Montreal, and he said, “Yeah, go ahead.”
I wanted to talk to you a bit about all the roles you're playing instrumentally on the album. For example, on Joe Henderson's “Power to the People,” you’re playing drums, vibes and percussion. How did you go about making that happen on a track? What’s the challenge of playing multiple instruments on a single track?
There's no challenge. It's in the overdub. First of all, I am the drummer on all of the tracks. I made sure I put myself on mallets and vibes, and I do that everywhere. Even when I perform, I'm playing mallets. I got a lot of reasons for that.
Going back to the mallets, does that take you back to your days with Max Roach and M’Boom, where you pretty much had to learn the entire percussion arsenal? You worked together for probably a year before you were performing. Now that’s what you call being in the shed and working it out. Is this when you first started playing the vibes and mallets?
I don't consider myself a pianist. People always say I play what we call "arrangers’ piano." Which is enough. Most good musicians play some piano. When I lived in Washington, DC in the early ‘60s, I was really playing a lot of piano and drums. I had developed quite a bit of skill on the piano. I knew theory, a lot of chords, a lot of harmonies. So, when I got to the mallets, it was actually easy. Vibraphone players get mad at me when I say that, but it wasn't a challenge. It was just a matter of getting the sticking together. I think at this point, I have the sticking pretty good. I won't compare myself to the great players, but I can play.
We can attest to the fact that you can play! There are a few originals of yours on the album that you have previously recorded. They're also some of my favorites on the new CD. There’s “Ruth,” penned for your beautiful wife, as well as “Gazelle Suite,” which you recorded back in the ‘70s on The Almoravid with Cedar Walton, George Cables, Woody Shaw, and Harold Vick. Dance Kobina also features “The Caravan.” You recorded this song with Max Roach and M’Boom, as well as on our 1999 recording Mirrors. Can you talk a bit about revisiting these tracks and the fresh approach that you bring to them on this new album?
“Ruth” was a song that was written for a full orchestra. I played and recorded it when I did a piece in 2004 with the Jazz at Lincoln Center Orchestra. They had a program called Year of the Drum. They were looking for a drummer who knew how to write orchestration. That's me. I orchestrated that piece and this version of it is condensed.
What about “Gazelle Suite?”
That’s a polymetered piece taken from when I did it for the M’Boom group. It’s very challenging to actually play and to get into it. But I tell you this kid up there, Elli (Miller Maboungou), he felt the rhythm right away. In fact, polymeter is double meters going at the same time. He could play both meters with two hands. He just fell right into it.
I've heard you say that the drum is the enemy. What do you mean by that? I think I have an idea.
I got a paper on that. I'm getting ready to do a master class up in Connecticut and that's going to be one of the features. The drum is the enemy of the cultures of the British Protestant, the predominant culture in the United States. Acculturation. See, they banned the drums in Congo Square, the place that they brought in the incoming slaves in 1600s. And they put 'em in there and then they said, “Oh yeah, y'all can go and dance on the weekends.” They would have these gatherings on the weekends, but they weren't just dancing in the 1600s and 1700s. That's the time the Haitians were in their fight with the French for that region. The French and the great Napoleon could not penetrate the beaches of Haiti. Haiti became the first freed state in the Western Hemisphere. And so those Haitians were coming to Congo Square, and they weren't just dancing and beating, they were galvanizing the people. It got so bad that they closed Congo Square down and banned drumming. That's a key event. By doing that and banning drumming, you are affecting the psycho spirituality. Not only of the African people, but of themselves too. They made it the enemy. What I'm saying is that is a situation and mindset that exists to this very day. It exists in the music business to this very day. All the great drummers knew this and went through this.
I wanted to ask you about your relationship and friendship with Max Roach who, at some point in his career, said, “I will no longer play anything that doesn't have social significance.” What impact did he have on you personally and musically?
When I was a kid, my idol was Gene Krupa. I saw him on TV. I didn't know about Max Roach until I was a teenager. I had a friend who had an older brother and we used to hang out. He played music by Max Roach and Clifford Brown and that stuff sounded like something from Mars. I said, “Oh man, what is this?” It resonated, but they weren't mainstream. I wanted to be like Max Roach, but I wanted to sound like Philly Joe Jones and Elvin Jones. That's who I wanted to sound like on the drums, but Max could write music, he could orchestrate for orchestras and string quartets.
Let's take a trip back in time to your days in the early ‘60s in DC, which were monumental, I think, in terms of your development and the artists that were coming through during a stint that you had at Bohemian Caverns.
I settled in Washington, DC after I got out of high school. I studied for one year at the Philadelphia Conservatory. Then I went on the road with Bobby Charles, the R&B group. I settled in DC and hooked up with a group there called the JFK Quintet that consisted of the late Andrew White, the late Walter Booker, the late Harry Killgo, and Ray Codrington. I think Ray is still around. We had a job six nights a week for three years. They don't have gigs like that anymore. You have to have a repertoire and you have to change your repertoire every week. But we didn't really know how to swing. We didn't really know how to play. I learned how to play what we call bash swing hard when I came to New York and worked with Freddie Hubbard, Joe Henderson, and especially McCoy Tyner. They, especially McCoy, taught me how to swing hard.
We had this job at the Caverns. That’s when jazz was very prominent, very visible. The theaters used to bring these guy cats in. They brought in R&B and everything, but they had jazz shows, like Miles, Cannonball, Coltrane, Freddie Hubbard. All these people would come in and they would all come down to the Caverns, of course.
When I came to New York first in 1963, my first job was six weeks at the Five Spot with the Cedar Walton Trio. I played the whole summer of 1964 uptown at Minton's Playhouse with Junior Cook, Blue Mitchell, and Chick Corea on piano. That's the way they used to book back in those days.
Is Bohemian Caverns where you met Eric Dolphy? Was he somewhat instrumental in connecting you with Blue Note?
In the summer of 1963, Eric came in and he was featured with us for what must have been two, three weeks. It was a long time. Eric was part of the avant garde. Do you remember Stanley Crouch?
Yes, I used to work for him doing transcriptions for the Charlie Parker book he wrote.
Stanely Crouch said “Man, you know, people talk about the avant garde, but the avant garde was what you cats were doing on Blue Note.” The cats he was talking about were Freddie Hubbard, Bobby Hutcherson, Andrew Hill, Sam Rivers, and Wayne Shorter. We just extended but we were swinging. You could still feel the beat. We were inside, but we stretched it.
I'll tell you another story. When I moved to New York and my first big time job was Eric Dolphy. We did a show at the Brooklyn Academy. It was Eric, Freddie Hubbard, Bobby Hutcherson, Richard Davis, and me. We had a rehearsal. Do you remember the record Out to Lunch?
Yes, of course.
He told me to come to the rehearsal and bring music. I wasn't even playing drums on it. It was Tony Williams playing drums. But he told me to come to this rehearsal and bring music. He was setting me up. He was introducing me to those people. It wasn't no big deal. I brought the music and Freddie Hubbard looked at it and said, “Oh, this is alright. The tune “Mirrors” was a classroom assignment piece we were studying.
When you wrote “Mirrors,” did you think it would stand the test of time?
No. It was a piece written and illustrating what we call mirror writing. Freddie looked at the piece and said, “Man, this guy must know what he's doing, look at the way these chords are moving.”
Is this how you and “Mirrors” ended up on Freddie’s Breaking Point!?
That's part of it. But Freddie knew me in DC too, but he didn't know I was writing. I brought this tune and they looked at the piece and Freddie said, “Oh yeah, man, this piece is alright.” Duke Pearson, who was the A&R man, liked the piece. He took it and recorded it with his group.
During this stint at Bohemian Caverns and when you first got to New York in 1963, you were playing all these sessions and you were just a kid in your twenties. Did you have any idea of how monumental this period was?
I was glad I was getting all this work and all these recordings. Here's the deal with Blue Note. They didn't care what you played as long as they could pull something out of the program and put it on the jukebox. That's the truth. That stuff with Wayne Shorter and McCoy Tyner, ain't your average Joe. That's some way-out stuff. But on every one of those programs, there was always a piece that could go on the jukebox that had a bluesy feel to it.
I’ll give you a clearer example of that. You remember the record by Cannonball called Somethin’ Else?
Sure, I do with Miles (Davis). Let me guess, the tune for the jukebox was “One for Daddy O.”
That's the piece. It has the right feel. Miles says to Alfred Lion, “This one’s for you, Alfred.” That was the one he put on the jukebox. It had a bluesy feel, had a nice groove. So that was the deal with Blue Note in those days. If you had something on there that they could single out, you'd be fine.
You recorded on McCoy Tyner’s “Tender Moments.” When you were coming up in Philly did you know him?
No, I didn't. McCoy, Lee (Morgan) and Bobby Timmons were ahead of me. Reggie (Workman) was ahead of me too, but we played together. I used to always tell people, if you ever saw Coltrane, it was McCoy driving that band. People thought it was Elvin Jones. Elvin was tasty. He was stronger than any drummer in his prime. But even with Elvin, McCoy was driving that band. I'll tell you that.
Who are some of the composers who have inspired you the most?
I studied classical composing in the conservatory. My degree is in European classical music composition. When you’re studying classical music and composition, they make you study Tristan & Isolde. There are 300 arias in that you got to learn. This is what they make you do in the conservatory.
Speaking about education, you taught at The New School. Then you moved to Wilmington, North Carolina to teach at the University of North Carolina in Wilmington, where I believe you are the first professor of jazz there.
They had a jazz studies program. In fact, most major colleges and universities in this country have one. They got to a point where they were looking for a distinguished jazz professor. I heard about it, and I came down and I got the gig. There were other people, but I had a lot of stuff to present to them.
What is the greatest piece of wisdom that you want to impart to your students with some sense of urgency?
A lot of people are disillusioned and think it's going to be very easy. The difference between teaching in North Carolina and New York is this. Down here, the students in the music school, they're smart. They have double majors. A student may be playing music, but their studying law or studying engineering. They don't really want to play. On the other hand, in New York, the students come there, and they want to hit, they want to play, they want to learn. They want you to bring all of the street life. You can't bring the street life down here in North Carolina to these people. It doesn't fly. But in New York, that's what they want, and they want to play. You got to challenge those students up there.
I wanted to ask you a bit about the physicality of playing the drums. You must be in tip top shape mentally, physically, and spiritually to perform at your level. Do you have some kind of regimen?
I don't have a regimen. In fact, I'm playing drums less and less, I'll tell you that.
Of course, it doesn't sound like it on the album Dance Kobina. I hear a whole lot going on!
Well, I've got enough stuff in reserve. It reminds me that there was a baseball player back in the day who was very muscular and a slugger and when they asked him that question, he said, “Just give me about a week and I’ll be alright.” I still need to practice. I need to practice right now, as a matter of fact, but I have enough in reserve that I don't have to be all of that. Drums are a very physical instrument. I remember Duke Pearson used to tell me, “Hey man, you sound better when you don't practice.”
The drum gymnastics part of it can get control of you, and that messes with the music. You have to think that you’re playing pulse-oriented music, that's the most important thing. I think about Billy Higgins, but he wasn't a flash drummer. He just played. He just knew how to swing.
It was all joy just watching Billy Higgins swing too.
When you practice too much, you can get into all those calisthenics. That's what Lou Donaldson used to call it: Calisthenics.
This interview has been edited for brevity and clarity.
