You look around you and you constantly read and hear about Renaissance men, but never enough about Renaissance women. My recent conversation with Rickie Lee Jones is strong testament to the latter.
Long before Chuck E. fell in love, Rickie Lee was in love with The American Standard. She knew songs from Jule Styne, Harry Warren, George & Ira Gershwin, Arlen & Mercer, Kurt Weill and Jimmy McHugh and Dorothy Fields, singing them all at the age of 8, when she wasn't singing tunes from West Side Story. Rickie Lee Jones' story, as she says, is a trip through the Last Chance Texaco (the title of her autobiography), and it all comes through on her new album Pieces Of Treasure, which was released on April 28 on BMG/Modern and which she performed live at Birdland in NYC on April 6-8. Her connection to these great composers and their songs came through passionately during our recent chat.
Watch our conversation here:
Interview transcript:
Rickie Lee Jones: I'm looking forward to singing. Yay. All this talking… While it's fun to meet new people, it diverts you from your real purpose of singing. Actually, it doesn't divert you, but it makes you forget the reason you're doing it is so you can't sing. “I've grown up, people, that's why you are here.”
Gary Walker: Welcome folks to WBGO Studios. I'm Gary Walker with a very special guest with us today. I'll use her own words [from Jones’ book Last Chance Texaco]. “My very first performance, I was three years old. I was a snowflake in the ballet performance of ‘Bambi,’ bowing low. At the end of our dance, I heard the audience's applause and I took it personally. I remained standing long after the other snowflakes had melted and left the stage. The dance teacher had to escort me off the stage, but the audience was delighted and the die was cast. I liked it up there.”
Now fast forward to 1979. Shortly after Chuck E. made that phone call to Rickie Lee Jones, I had the opportunity to see her at the Music Hall in Cleveland, Ohio. When she came out, the very first tune she did was “Chuck E.'s in Love” and I thought, “Where is this going to go from here?” Then she introduced the audience to the worlds of Billie Holiday and Dinah Washington and others. You know, sometimes when you're a pirate, you get the whole treasure chest, but for most of us, if we keep our eyes open, we get just pieces of treasure. That's what we're here to talk about today with Rickie Lee Jones.
Hello and welcome to WBGO Studios.
Rickie Lee Jones: What a wonderful introduction. You hit so many little places that not many people see, so thank you. That was great.
First off, what makes a song an American standard and what makes a song a great standard? Is it that part of the story that you can embrace through your own travels? That's what happened for you starting at a very young age when your father introduced you to three or four of the tunes we're going hear on this new recording that you're going to perform live on April 6, 7 and 8 at Birdland in New York. But it all started when you were very young.
When I heard these songs in 1963, I was eight, and by then some of them are only 20, 30, 40 years old, if you can imagine. That's younger than “Chuck E.’s in Love.” Walter Becker used to tell me that what they call jazz now, in those days was just pop. The singers were pop singers because they were singing popular songs that at some point become jazz songs.
To answer your question, “What makes a standard?” is that people keep singing it through the years. What makes a song great is that different kinds of people cover it. For instance, a country guy does it, a jazz guy does it. If you can get a diverse group of people attracted to your tune, then you have a song that'll probably live for a long time.
What attracted us to your work over the years is the fact that you surrounded yourself with a lot of jazz folk like Dr. John, who you would later go into the studio with that resulted in a Grammy award. There was a young Russ Ferrante on keyboards, Randy Brecker, Chuck Findley, Ernie Watts. The list is unbelievable of some of the folks that are going to be joining you at Birdland in New York City, such as Rob Mounsey, who has worked with you over the years since the very early recordings and up to the minute.
I think it’s safe to say that Mike Mainieri will join us for one night as well.
Mike joins you on this new recording, Pieces of Treasure, which comes out the latter part of April. Mike is featured on the Jule Styne, Betty Comden, Adolph Green classic, “Just in Time.” I can remember three or four years before Chuck E. fell in love that I had a chance also in Ohio to see Laura Nyro in performance, and her musical director was Mike Mainieri.
No kidding. I didn't know that. I'll have to talk to him about. That means something now. That was something I got through—the tribute to Laura when she died which happened at the Beacon Theater. That was a wonderful tribute with many of the musicians who knew her and just respected her. I got to meet some of the people I'd heard about, but I never got to meet the lady herself. We corresponded through the engineer Mark Linett who did Pirates, and who then went on to work with Laura. I'd send little messages to her. Telling her how much I loved her.
I bet she appreciated that. It also marks a return with this new recording of working with Russ Titelman who was there in 1979 and also there for Pirates as well. You've known each other across the years. Let’s talk about jazz. The music that encompasses that improvisational music goes back to you when you were a little kid walking the streets looking for some shade there in the Phoenix area, but singing songs from West Side Story. Where did you find West Side Story?
Well, I went to see it with my big sister. My mother used to make her take me with her wherever she went. I saw West Side Story when I was only eight years old and it had a big emotional impact on me. I'm guessing that it was the music that tied together a story I'd probably seen many times before and, when they just began to dance, expressed how they felt.
It is part of everything that I did ever after. Any influences I had in the early days had to do with West Side Story. It was a powerful blend of classical music and jazz interpreted by a classical guy, but nonetheless, beautiful music. I identified with all the characters. There was no sexual thing for me. If I was anything, I was Riff who was the leader of the Jets. I liked Maria in the death scene with the Catholic thing over her head praying. But most of the time the great characters are guys. Velma and Graziella are the two girlfriends of Riff and Ice. They were good looking women, so I liked them, but they didn't really have any speaking parts. When I did my first and second tour, some of the moves choreographed by Jerome Robbins that those girls did, I did on my stage as well. And I could still do it here for you now.
Let's talk about some of the tunes that are on this recording that you're going to be performing at Birdland in New York City. Let's talk about “Just in Time.” How did you select that tune?
A few years ago, I got it in my head to do it. I'm working with an ensemble of three or four people who are versatile, but mostly rock. They don't have much of a vocabulary of jazz or soul. Teaching them a jazz song, how to feel it, you know, is a challenge. But I accept how they feel it and don't press what doesn't come naturally. But we began to do “Just in Time,” while we were in Germany at a tiny club, and it was monstrously wonderful. It was just as uplifting as I wanted it to be. So that was the first song on my list for the record.
I was really moved by your performance of “Nature Boy.” Talk about that because it features the oud and there's a sense memory that not only applies to the music, but also your daughter as well.
This is the thing about having a great producer, because I've produced or co-produced my own work for a long time now, but that's a lot of jobs and a lot of weight on your shoulders, and I just wanted to be the singer. On this recording, I gave all the responsibility to Russ. One of Russ's first calls was about the environment and “Nature Boy.” I said, “Wouldn't it be cool to put some kind of Middle Eastern instrument on it”? He said, “I know just what to do. I saw an oud player on public television last week.” He got his name and found him, and that's how the oud came to be on the record.
It's just marvelous the way you interact. Beautiful.
We had him play the solo and then I said, “Why don't we just have him play for a few minutes? It's so beautiful and I'll bet we can use it,” which is what we did. We just put it on the front of the song so as you enter the casbah or wherever you're entering in your own soul before we ever get to the story of “Nature Boy.”
Well, it's to love and be loved that most of us in our pursuit of the happily ever after are looking for. The opposing theme might be “Here's That Rainy Day,” the Jimmy Van Heusen and Johnny Burke classic. Talk about that.
That song was Russ's suggestion. I had heard it but didn't know it too well so studied it for a few months before we came to do it. I loved that all those songs are a little more complex than you think they're going to be. But I liked that in our arrangement, all the room we made for a solo and then didn't put a solo on so that the song just sits and relaxes. All of them are very slow and sit and relaxes, which is what's going happen if you hit that rainy day. Time is going to slow down and you're going to have to just sit in it.
The storyline is the opposite of desire. It's when no one asks you to dance.
Well, you know, it's a little cynical, but we all have that in us. We all hold a couple cards just in case. Maybe not when we're 15, but by the time we're 50 or 60, if we're dating again, most of us go, “I'm going save a little bit for that rainy day. It takes courage to go, “I am not saving anything for the rainy day. I'm jumping all in, just like I did when I was 16 years old.” If you do that, then in a way you'll stay young because you'll continue to have the wonder and catastrophes of youth.
“Keep your eyes open.” Your daddy always told you that. The fairies and the mystery come at the side view, especially at dusk, keep your eyes open. Billy Strayhorn kept his eyes open when he was 15 or 16 years old, and he wrote” Lush Life,” which you performed on your recording Girl at Her Volcano. We're chatting with Rickie Lee Jones, whose performance is April 6, 7 and 8 in New York City at Birdland, which is kind of your old neighborhood. You lived for a while over on Ninth Avenue, right?
Yeah. I lived in New York City off and on for a few years. But I wanted to talk just a little bit about “Just in Time,” if we could. It’s the first single. When it opens, Mike Mainieri’s first lines are just like the beginning of a brand new world, just the fruit Bobby, with that vibes thing. It's like the Jetsons meets the heaven and happier ever after. I've been contemplating whether I wanted to tell this, but I'm going to tell it. There's a remarkable natural interaction between Mike and me. He anticipates what I'm going to do, rhythmically as well as melodically.
If I'm going to go: “Just in time. You found me. Just in time.” If I'm going to sit that far back, he's going to anticipate how to set that up so that it'll be satisfying. He did that throughout the whole recording and to me, this is one of the most mystifying and wonderful performances that I've ever heard.
Agreed. Now, was it something you had to work at or he just has that innate ability to fall back or move back that this set you up?
We were back and forth virtually because it was COVID time and Mike's over 80. He didn't want to come out and risk it so he got to listen carefully. That’s the secret part. There aren't that many people in the world who listen to each other so carefully. He listened to my performance and sent back three performances for us to choose from. Of course they were all wonderful, but that one recording that we used was so stunning in its humor and its sophistication. He caught how I like to sing, which is to always be a little funny and a little off, but like I said, to be right in the pocket and sophisticated and grown up.
I think I've refrained from this in the past, but this is such a beautiful grown-up record. At 68, we can claim the banner of having grown up and almost everybody in the room, except for the drummer Mark and David Wong the bassist, was well over 50. What magic. You know we can't help it as a culture, but we start to throw people away when they get older.
Especially pop music, but maybe not so much jazz which leaves room for people to keep growing, not to grow backwards, but to continue to grow forward as they age. I feel like there's a chance people will hear this and really enjoy the love that we put into making this recording.
Yes, the stories that are associated with them such as “One for My Baby,” the Harold Arlen/Johnny Mercer classic. As I finished your book, the line that I came up with, that “It's, according to three, and the man who wears the star has forgotten about me. Oh, Not One for my Baby. One more for the road.” The road is something that you have been familiar with across your career. Like me as a kid, you moved around a lot.
We moved every year. My mother grew up in an orphanage. My father was out on his own when he was only 13 or 14. I think when they got together, they had an imaginary happy ever after. Like we all do. It was 1958 so there's a lot of pressure to get that house, get that backyard. But I think they only rented furnished places. We didn't have furniture.
They'd get in that house and after about six months, my mom would start looking in the newspaper for another house. We would move almost every year, which was fun, but it also put me in a new school. I don't know if there's something about me that's different. I should know by now. But I would go into the schools and people would right away, little kids, you know, target me as a weirdo.
I was fine in the first and second grade until we moved. But once we moved, I could never get back any sense of being a part of a community. The one good part about that is I think when you're isolated socially, you can and will devote yourself to your art because it's the thing that brings you solace. Probably a lot of great artists, not all, were lonely or isolated as kids.
I hear a train in the background. Isn’t a train the focus of one of your dreams that turned into a piece of music as well?
Yes. Traveling on a train, sitting with the band.
I'm like you, Rickie, I don't know what a picket fence is all about. But because you don't know what a picket fence is about, you’ve had the opportunity to go to Paris, France. You had the opportunity to meet a leprechaun in Ireland, (at least Van Morrison thought he was a leprechaun). Now, New Orleans. How long have you lived in New Orleans?
I first came here 10 years ago just before my 59th birthday. I had finished a tour and then crashed with some people and started all over again and got a home nine years ago.
During your time in New Orleans, you've had the opportunity to run into many of the greats of New Orleans. Imagine singing “Sunny Side of the Street” with “Eye Patch” Weiss and James Booker, who would also take a very young Harry Connick, Jr. under his wing when he was barely big enough to get up on the piano bench.
When I in New Orleans, I did a tour here in 1979, but I was friends at that time with Dr. John and Chuck Weiss. Dr. John set me up with all kinds of people who still lived here. At that time, he said he was never coming back. One of the people he had me go listen to and meet was James Booker. I would walk from my hotel, after getting up at four in the afternoon, have a glass of whiskey and dinner, and walk down to hear him play.
I was much older when I was 25 to listen to James. He and I became friends. We shared “My Funny Valentine” and a few other songs. Of course, he plays for himself so to play with another and a singer… I tried to pull him over a little to how I heard it, and he came so we had a bit of a dialogue. There are no recordings. Although I've heard that someone did record it. I was probably in the mindset of, “You may not record me,” but it was a wonderful kindness that we had together.
That's a kindness that you never lose. You always fall back on that. You always bring that up as you perform a particular piece. The new recording Pieces of Treasure is something to treasure. It is indeed a treasure trove. This pirate has captured the whole chest, I'm telling you and she's made these stories, her own. “September Song” is a very heartfelt performance because your father, toward the end of his life, introduced you to that piece of music.
Well, that's not exactly right. He taught me songs that he felt were important that I should know, but he explained that “September Song,” so I would get it when I was a little kid. Nine or ten. He said, “Now this is a song about an older person in love with a young person. That's why they're using September and December to describe the relationship.” I probably understood it, but it's good that he explained it to me anyway. I always had a picture of a little old man sitting on a park bench, in love with this beautiful 20-year-old, which in the imaginary world is just a painting, but in the real world, is a dubious thing. As I got older, first 40, 50 and now that I’m 68, I have passed the little old man that was on the park bench.
I think now at this stage of my life, the song is saying, “I can see the end of my life not too far away, and I love with all my might, and every moment now is precious and I’m on fire with feelings.” I think that whether or not she's younger, it just doesn't matter. I think the message is that we never stopped loving with all our heart and we never stopped looking either.
In 1979 when I came to see you in Cleveland at Music Hall, we took some mushrooms. Well, here I am at 73 and I've replaced the psychedelics with probiotics. So I understand, but I still continue the search and the journey because that journey is what's exciting about getting out of bed every morning. For you, it's the ability to take that journey to a stage and share it with audiences and tell these great stories, these nuggets from the Great American Songbook which is almost a microcosm because all of these stories that come from the Great American Songbook are very close to your heart in one way or another.
They are the connection to my father. But also the connection is to the song, whether I learned it when I was a kid or a year ago. Can I find a place to live in that song that I can always go to when I sing that song? Here's the door, there's the window, when I this phrase. I kind of build songs like houses. I just do. They're always there. One of the songs that I was most excited about (I don't have a favorite), but it's the last song on the record, “All in the Game,” because the rest didn't really want to do it.
It was a popular hit in the ‘50s and has kind of been thrown away. To me, the feeling of sudden lost love and waiting to see if it's going to be all right, is exquisite at any moment. Life could just fall apart, right? That's how it feels. With that in mind, I sang this song as slow as I possibly could. Also on “September Song” so that I articulate every vowel and consonant which I'm not known for singing like that. I like to slur it and use the syllables as places to land on rather than words to say. But in this one, articulating every sound was really special. In the course of making the record, this simple thing of articulating every word that I sang changed me a little bit. I don't know how or why that could be, Gary, but making this jazz record set me free of some things as an artist. With my feet on the ground.
You've always had that freedom because as that song implies, in order to find joy, many a tear has to fall and that's how it all comes together, and it's coming together for you. Russell Malone. You talk about the symbiotic relationship between the two of you. Russell will be there for the dates. Rob Mounsey will also be on piano and keys. You and the bassist Paul Nowinski go back. Paul, he was with Les Paul.
Paul, who in New York City had this gig [with Les Paul] every Monday or something, had to get a substitute to work with me and then he lost his job. He was upset, but I was lucky to find him. We recorded “Showbiz Kids” together, as well as some stuff with Joe Jackson on that. Great record. The title “It's Like This.” We have a lot of history and we haven't worked together in quite a while, so I think it's going to be a ball. I really do. And also Mark McLean on the drums.
Another fine musician as well. What a pleasure to chat with you about this upcoming recording. I look forward to seeing you in person. I want to ask you another question. Travels are a big part of your life. You're on the road. Where are you going and what's playing while you're driving?
I'm going wherever the road leads. I hope that answer is okay because I don't have a destination. I think what's on the radio right now is “Don't Fear the Reaper.” I was driving and Blue Oyster Cult came on. You know when you're out in the wide open spaces on the freeway and that cowbell comes on and that beautiful guitar, you're like, “Yeah.”
I went to a party one time in New Jersey and it was at May Pang's House. May Pang was the girlfriend for a while of John Lennon. She used to throw these annual parties like barbecues and stuff, and Blue Oyster Cult came to the party and jammed. It was unbelievable.
That song has a life of its own. That guitar line is so iconic and it's joyful. It's weird that the lyrics are so dark because the music is a kind of a joyful sound. I think I may perform that song someday. Who knows? I started to sing it once at the Largo [in Los Angeles]. I swear all time has come and the audience started laughing. So maybe there're just some things that Rickie Lee can't do. Plus I kept saying “Don't fear the reefer” because I was really nervous.
Well, something that through legislation we've learned not to fear. I still remember that night in Cleveland. Most of the audience had no idea who Billie Holiday and Dinah Washington were. It was so remarkable how you carried the audience with you. By the end of the night, they were so much closer, not only to you, but also to the worlds of people like Billie Holiday and Dinah Washington. We don't have enough of those people around today.
I really meant to do that and I'm so glad that you were there and saw it. And thanks for remembering it to me.
Oh, I'll never forget it. Folks, I also turn your attention to Rickie Lee's autobiography of sorts called Last Chance Texaco. If you get the opportunity to read this book, it is really a compelling read about a lady who searched for the treasure. She got burnt along the way a couple times, but here she is. She's found those treasures on this new recording that comes out on April 28. I look forward to seeing you in April at Birdland in New York City.
I'm so excited to do it and thank you to a new friend, Gary.
More soon and best to your travels, to your next destination. The dreams you may encounter. Always look out of the sides of those eyes because that's where the magic is. Finally, let’s talk a bit about your grandfather. You come from such a musical entertainment background.
Peg Leg Jones, a big vaudeville star. There were others but he was the guy that comes to mind that's in so much of what I do. He was a ukulele player, guitar player, and singer.
This interview has been edited for brevity and clarity.
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